Ryssarna vände hemmåt för att de hade gjort precis vad de skulle.
De hade order om att bränna skärgården (det hade de gjort) och hade order om att göra ett försök att bränna Stockholm. Kampanjen skulle dock ha varit avklarad för en vecka sedan, men hade gått så bra för ryssarna att de stannade kvar för att göra sitt försök mot huvudstaden. De gjorde sitt försök, och förlorade en hyggligt stor andel av sina marinsoldater (fortfarande dock bara cirka 400-500 man) men retirerade utan några större förluster när det gäller skepp (av 130 skepp så har vi endast 3 bekräftade förluster. Någon sorts anfallspråmar som skickades in mot Stäket för att hugga upp de skepp som hade sänkts i farleden)
I jämförelse så förstördes infrastruktur till ett värde av ungefär 5 miljoner riksdaler. Det var mer än hela svenska statens årsinkomst vid den här tiden.

Synes lämpligt att i all disqus om ‘det stora nordiska kriget’ söka förklara anledningen till Rysslands agerande, vilket efter härjningarna 1719 skapat en ”rysskräck” som tydligen inte går att tvätta bort. Sverige vägrade ju fredsförhandla sedan 10 år trots förödande militära och politiska nederlag. Till slut tröttnade storfursten av Ryssland, Tsar Peter . — F.ö. Varför lät kommendör Michail Levasjev skona Tyresö slott från 1630-talet? Någon som kan klargöra faktabaserat eller formulera en förklarande hypotes? 

Man bör kanske addera syftet med denna, ytligt sett märkliga, ryska ”statsterrorism”. Vid den tiden (slutet av stora nordiska kriget) inleddes fredsförhandlingar på Åland. Sverige väntade på militär hjälp från England och förhalade därför förhandlingarna. De så kallade rysshärjningarna var helt enkelt ett försök att tära på det då säkert väldigt krigströtta svenska samhällets sista krafter.

Apraksin var alltså inte där för att invadera Sverige eller så. Man kan lätt få för sig det när Skärgårdskriget beskrivs så här rakt av.

För att nu leda kommentaren i en helt ovidkommande riktning tycker jag att de här händelserna borde vara oerhört lämpliga att göra film på. Det har ju allt: svensk skärgård, sommartid, elaka ryssar som bränner gårdar, etc. Eftersom hela förloppet – inklusive slaget vid Stäket – dessutom är relativt ofullständigt dokumenterat finns ju gott om utrymme för konstnärlig frihet i manusförfattandet.

Eftersom Sverige under 1700-talet bestod även av den numera förlorade ösrtra rikshalvan så fanns det all anledning att ha ”rysskräck” i Sverige som du kallar det. Det hela slutade ju faktiskt med att ryska riket från och med 1809 låg en postrodd från Grisslehamn.

”They may take our Skärgård! But they’ll never take our Freedoooooooom!”

:)

Jo, det är säkert sant men faktum är att ‘det stora nordiska kriget’ avslutades först två år senare med ett bilateralt fredsavtal (Freden i Nystad, Finland, daterad 1721-08-30) och då efter ytterligare ryska fredsframtvingande härjningar efter svenska kusten norr om Gävle.  

Jo man kan delvis förstå rädslan när Finland militärt och utrikespolitiskt förvaltades av Ryssland fram till självständighetsförklaringen 1917-12-06 och definitivt innan ”fredsavtalet” mellan Ryssland och Finland signerat i Tartu 1920. Märkligt dock att trots en finsk buffertzon efter 1920 betraktas fortfarande Ryssland som en hotfull granne i vissa kretsar i Sverige; även i den svenska regeringen.

 Det är en ganska hotfull granne, även idag. En massiv krigsmakt som de inte har tvekat att använda sig av vid konflikter i deras ”intressesfär”. Och vi råkar befinna oss inom denna ”intressesfär”.
Dock så befinner vi oss, till skillnad från Georgien, också inom NATOs intressesfär.

Du använder själv begreppet ”buffertzon” och det säger ju faktiakt en hel del om hur du själv omedvetet betraktar Ryssland och Sovjetunionen. Finska vinterkirget och ockupationen av Baltikum 1939 visade att respekten i Sverige för ryska ambitioner att expandera var befogad. Sverige blir naturligtvis mindre tryggt när vi har en aggressiv diktatur strax öster om Gotland.

Den dag en rysk politisk ledning intresserar sig mer för t ex arvet från stadsrepubliken Novgorod och kultur än Ivan den förskräcklige och krigsmakten tror jag att vi kan pensionera ””rysskräcken” som du kallar den.

Sätter man sig inte vid fredsförhandlingsbordet blir det så här. Segraren vrider åt tumskruvarna, vilket av någon anledning får mig att tänka på Palestina.

I sådana drömmar tycks också den svenska nuvarande statsledningen vandra tillsammans med med mannen som instigerade till det svenska försvarets förfall – generallöjtnanten Kihl.

Det gäller som sagt var att se upp. När det är som lugnast lurar faran runt hörnet.

Man har ju alltid i den svenska historieundervisning framhållit att Carl XII anfallit Ryssland men aldrig angivit orsaken. Ungefär som om CXII var en vildsin erövrartyp istället för en motiverad och kapabel försvarare av det svenska riket. Men han gick dessvärre i den fälla som hans farmor och hans guvenör Lars Wallenstedt varnade honom för att omge sig med ”lösker” folk i försvarsledningen.

Själv hoppas jag på en förändrad attityd med minskad misstänksamhet efter Rysslands högst troliga inträde i WTO med skarpa åtaganden för tillträde till varu- och tjänstemarknaden. Vi får se efter WTO:s ministerkonferens, planlagd att äga rum den 15:e till 17:e december i år. Tidigare undertecknade Ryssland och Georgien ett avtal i Genève som formellt avlägsnar det sista hindret för Rysslands inträde i WTO.  

Intressant inlägg som vanligt, tack Dick! Men att ryssarna ”härjade i skärgården: förde ihop boskap, brände gårdar och spikade upp manifest” låter ju inte så hemskt, behandlade dom i övrigt befolkningen väl?

Det stora problemet, i synnerhet när det gäller striden vid Stäket, är att skildringarna närmast uteslutande bygger på analyser av svenska källor. Ryska historiker har aldrig ägnat sig särskilt mycket åt de här sakerna och svenska historiker har i princip inte bedrivit några forskningar i ryska arkiv.

Lacy var f.ö. inte amiral utan lantmilitär. Hans rang 1719 var generalmajor.

Det förtjänar att påpekas hur nära ryssen var Stockholm. Bland de brända slotten 1719 fanns Östanå innanför Ljusterö, endast några mil från Stockholms centrum. ”Tack vare” de ryska insatserna kunde slottet byggas upp från grunden som ett mini-Versailles med de vackra trädgårdarna sluttande ner mot vattnet.
Johan Lybeck, Noailhac, Frankrike

Platsen för striden vid Stäket (nära Fisksätra) ligger mycket närmare än så.

Tyresö slott lär ha klarat sig tack vare den rådiga slottsfrun som brände en lada så att ryssarna trodde att deras trupper redan hade bränt Tyresö. Den lilla, troligtvis Sveriges minsta herrgård, Lemshaga skonades lyckligtvis.

”Levasjev” hette egentligen Василий Яковлевич Левашов, alltså Vasilij Jakovlevitj Levasjov. Naturligtvis en struntsak, men för den som eventuellt vill leta mer information spelar stavningen stor roll. 

Den ”lätta flottan” gjorde då sin debut. Sedan fick Sverige ”Arméns flotta” som ett svar. Nu är vi tillbaka till den lösningen, men huvudsakligen under vattnet. Nordic Battle Group i all ära, men i dagens läge är det flottan som skall prioriteras!

Jag vet inte vilken skans du kallar Holken, men 1719 så var Stäket (och skurusund som kommer efteråt) ganska obefäst. Det fanns några mindre skansar på nordsidan (vid Boo), men inga på sydsidan. Istället så grävde man ett par temporära skansar på sydsidan, men det är osäkert om dessa var helt klara när anfallet kom. Det är först efter Slaget vid Stäket som man bygger upp mer permanenta försvarsverk (Stäket redutt).

Därför valde ryssarna att anfalla Stäket istället för genom norra farleden, för där fanns Vaxholms fästning. Ett anfall mot Vaxholm hade blivit bra mycket mer smärtsamt då de skepp man hade inte hade tillräckligt tjocka skrov för att erbjuda något skydd mot vaxholms grovkalibriga kanoner.

men tror holken är gammal-det är mycket trångt där. har du sett dahlheims skiss över slaget? tror det kom som en överraskning för ryssarna?

Tycker att Dicks fråga inledningsvis är konstig. ”Vad vet vi om…” etc, ”hur allvarligt var hotet?”. Goddag yxskaft. Vi vet allt om skärgårdskriget, som inte slutade 1718 utan ryssarna kom tillbaka 1720 och 1721 men då på andra ställen. Allt är oerhört väldokumenterat – varenda gård som brändes ner är dokumenterad eftersom bönderna fick en tids skattefrihet för att bygga upp sina gårdar. Vi vet varenda skärmytsling med svensk reguljär trupp och hur det slutatde – slaget vid Selånger är ett exempel. Hur stort var hotet? Ja, vad tror du själv Dick? Nu var ju inte Sverige försvarslöst, men det var svårt att hinna med och förflytta sig med samma snabbhet som galärerna, därför den omfattande förstörelsen.

Detta hade kunnat undvikat om Karl XII tagit ett annat beslut 1700/1701 och inte tågat söderut, utan tågat mot Moskva istället men det är en annan historia. Hade han gjort det så hade inte Ryssland existerat idag.

Varför hade inte Ryssland existerat idag?

Den gamla hederliga rysskräcken fick sig en stor injektion kommunistskräck. 

Tar gärna del av Hank Wisemans kommentarer i miltära historiska sammanhang; synes ha goda insikter. Fler märkliga episoder i svensk historia med militär och rysk anknytning kan ev. vara av intresse som exempelvis när en svensk expedition under befäl av Jakob De la Gardie undsatte furst Vasilij Sjujskij i Moskva år 1606 mot bl.a. belägrande polacker, dvs. svensk trupp fanns då i Moskva. En annan är inkvarteringen av 2570 ryska soldater i slutet av november år 1743 på Södermalm i Stockholm (och ännu fler på andra orter) efter en marsch från Baggensfjärden där fartygen var förlagda; händelsen finns dokumenterad i boken ‘Den farliga hjälpen’ av Anders Persson, utgiven 1981.   

Nja, att Karl XII 1700/1701 skulle ha kunnat störta tsar Peter är nog mer en önskedröm. I slaget vid Narva  i november 1700 förfogade Karl XII över ca 10 000 man, vid Kliszów sommaren 1702 över ca 12 000. Att 1700/1701 marschera från Baltikum mot Moskva (fågelvägen drygt 700 km), genom ett land med ca 10 miljoner invånare, med bara 10-15 000 man skulle nog ha betraktats som ganska dumdristigt.

Kan inte hank wiseman, som tycks ägna en stor del av sin vakna tid här, skaffa sig ett eget litet diskussionsforum där han kan gå på om hur fel alla andra har (särskilt Dick) och få lansera sina något osammanhängande teorier.
Ett annat alternativ vore ju förstås att hank påbörjar en utbildning eller tar ett jobb så att hans vardag kan fyllas med något meningsfyllt, i stället för att här fäktas mot väderkvarnar i tid och otid.

Hela ditt antagande är falskt. Napoleon brände inte Moskva.

Jag är väl medveten om Ryssarna tände på själva, det är ett uttryck, som att säga att Carl XII fick på käften vid Poltava, nej det var ingen som slog honom personligen i ansiktet, utan ett uttryck.

Vad jag misstänkte, tack.

Det som är av vikt är inte vad du är medveten om, utan vad du skriver på en plats med många läsare. Det som står är historieförfalskning.

I början av 1708, när Karl XII faktiskt var i färd med att försöka något i den vägen, hade han som jämförelse ca 35 000 man i den egna armén, vilken kunde förstärkas med bortåt 15 000 från Baltikum. Till detta kunde läggas med svenskarna lierade polska och (särskilt) litauiska trupper samt det faktum att Sachsen hade tvingats ur kriget. Förvisso hade tsaren hunnit stärka sin krigsmakt, men det hade alltså också Karl XII gjort. Till skillnad från 1700/01 stod Ryssland ensamt och det pågick dessutom uppror.

Då ber jag om ursäkt och nästa gång ska jag inte ”skoja” till det.

Men jag blir mer orolig om inlägg här kommer att användas som källa för framtida forskning, för det är det som är ”historieförfalskning”, att hänvisa till felaktiga källor eller exkludera dem, eller rent av hitta på.

Om vi nu ända ska vara korrekta.

De planer som faktiskt fanns 1700/1701 var betydligt mer modesta. Man tänkte sig ett anfall mot ryska gränsfästningar (Pskov), men idén övergavs på hösten 1701. Senare forskare (Onni Korkiakangas) har velat se de stora kostnaderna som en bidragande orsak, d.v.s. det var ur finansieringssynpunkt fördelaktigt att föra kriget vidare på polskt territorium (och därmed till stor del på polsk bekostnad) än att med egna medel utrusta och försörja en armé som skulle operera i gränstrakterna mellan Estland/Livland och Ryssland.

Vi får se om din anmälning av min kommentar har någon effekt. Patetiskt!

Dicks blogg är alltid intressant och lärorik. Kommentarerna från hatarna har ofta också ett visst underhållningsvärde

Knappast. Under vinern 1700/1701 utökades den svenska styrkan till 18 000 man. Sverige förfogade totalt över 65 000 man vid krigets inledning och vid krigets slut hade, totalt, 150 000 man värvats. De 65 000 var 35 000 indelta soldater och 30 000 värvade. till detta kom allierade, som t ex Lüneburg m fl. T ex när Danmark 1700 anfaller Holstein-Gottorp, så anländer en undsättningsstyrka bestående av 7 000 svenskar och 10 000 Lüneburgare.

Problemet för Sverige var att kunna kraftsamla merparten av hären mot Ryssland. T ex om man tågade mot Moskva, hur skulle Sachsare och Polacker agera för att inte nämna Danmark? Ett ganska svårt schackspel, där vi, idag, inte kan alla detaljer. Sverige kunde nog utan större besvär uppbåda ytterligare ca 10 000 man under 1701, eget och värvat och då har vi en svensk arme på ca 75 000 man. Jag tror, att om Sverige hade gett Sachsen/Polen en väg ut ur det hela efter slaget vid Narva, så hade de nog tagit erbjudandet. Nu fick Sachsen/Polen ett förslag de överhuvudtaget inte kunde acceptera. Det blr mycket om nu… Om Sverige inte hade låtit de ca 35 000 ryssarna återvända, om Sverige snabbt hade gått in i en separatfred med Sachsen/Polen och om vi hade tågat mot Moskva sommaren 1701 med ca 50 000 man, så tror jag inte Ryssland hade existerat idag. En uppgift som jag har sett var att Ryssland hade ca 170 000 man av varierande kvalitet. Dessa skulle då, efter Narva, inte bara försvara sig emot Sverige utan mot Ottomanerna samt ett kosackuppror. De 35 000 ryssar som förlorade vid Narva var nog av bättre kvalitet än övriga armén eftersom de var inbegripna i offensiv krigföring.

Så, 170 000 – 35 000, det blir ca 135 000 kvar. Säg att hälften hade kunnat användas mot Sverige, dvs ca 70 000. Jag tror inte att de hade kunnat stoppa 50 000 karoliner.

Detta vara bara ett av många alternativ. Ett annat hade varit att systematiskt föröda ryska landområden, en slags terrortaktik, som över tid hade försvagat Ryssland. Brända byar, stöderm grödor etc och sen drar man sig tillbaka – ett slags utnötningskrig.

Som avslutning vill jag bara nämna att armén i Polen 1705 bestod av ca 30 000 man uppdelade i två delar, en på 9000 under Rehnskiöld och en på 20 000 under Karl XII. Armen som anföll Norge 1718 bestod av ca 35 000 man – 9 000 som anföll via Jämtland (mestadels finska regementen) och ca 25 000 som anföll via Halden. En ganska imponerande armé med tanke på att det var 1718. Jag vet för litet om hur det gick i skärmytslingar med norska trupper söderut, men den norra armén gjorde rent hus. Norrmännen var rädda som harar och trots att det norska kavalleriet var numerärt större så slydde de undan de la Barres finska ryttare. De brände bl a Röros och den som är hågad kan se de återkommande spelen ”Röros brinner” i just Röros. 

Hej Mattias,

Kul att du nämnde Johan Kihl – det var ju han som lanserade ”Nätverksbaserat försvar” – en totalt vansinnig idé som raskt slukade miljarbelopp och där istäälet svenska regementen lades ner. Reaultatet av Nätverksbaserat försvar blev ett stort skämt, något som sedan en panikslagen försvarsledning försöker dölja. Jag träffade några av de som höll på med projektet och kunde bara konstatera att de hade total noll koll.

Hej Valemar,

Problemet för mig är att Dicken förorenar SvD, en tidning jag regelbundet läser, med sitt trams. Jag hoppas och jag har uppvaktat SvDs redation, med att byta ut Dicken mot en seriös historiker, så att kvaliteten, ett av SvDs signum, bibehålls. Om Dicken skriver i Aftonbladet, Flamman eller Expressen så lovar jag dyrt och heligt att hålla mig därifrån. Har vi en deal?

Jag hatar inte Dick, det är ett starkt överdrivet påstående, men jag betraktar honom inte som en seriös historiker. Det är en skillnad.

Uhhhhn, så du antar att jag anmäler ditt kommentar, du får nog ta och drömma vidare.

Hank alltid kul att läsa vad du skriver

Men de som oroar mig mest är att dåvarande regering och nuvarande regering tydligen svalt ”hook line and zinker”

När det gäller Harrison så uppskattar jag hans folkbildningsarbete a la Herman Lindqvist. Och det skall inte förringas. Så – Hank keep up the god work.

Totalsiffran 1700/1701 är meningslös eftersom den innefattar garnisonerna i de tyska provinserna, trupperna hemma i Sverige, armén i Finland, garnisoner i baltiska fästningar m.m. Det intressanta är vad Karl XII ansåg sig kunna disponera för offensiva företag under eget befäl och det var på våren 1702 något under 15 000 man.

En offensiv mot Ryssland i motsvarande läge hade naturligtvis behövt ta hänsyn till Sachsen (och till Danmark och andra potentiella fiender). Man hade fortfarande behövt hålla trupper i Sverige, i Finland, i de baltiska fästningarna och i de tyska provinserna. Alltså hade bara en mindre del av totalstyrkan kunnat användas.

En fred med Sachsen hade måhända varit möjlig 1700/1701 om Karl XII hade varit beredd till territoriella eftergifter, men problemet hade också en annan dimension. Åren före krigsutbrottet hade August II vid ett flertal tillfällen bedyrat sin vänskap och inlett diskussioner om förbund, medan han samtidigt i största hemlighet förhandlade fram en anti-svensk angreppsallians med Ryssland & Danmark. Av detta drog Karl XII den fullt naturliga slutsatsen att August inte gick att lita på. Ett fredsavtal med honom skulle ha noll och intet värde om det dök upp en situation som August fann gynnsam – t.ex. att svenska armén marscherade i väg mot Moskva. Det gällde därför att i möjligaste mån oskadliggöra August innan man gav sig på detta.

Ryssland, både idag och tidigare, är ett gytter av olika folkslag. Moskoviterna har med terror och propaganda lyckats hålla ihop detta stora land. Knäck centralmakten och allt faller ihop som ett korthus. De kosackuppror som pågick i Ukraina i början av 1700-talet är exempel på det liksom dagens tjetjenska och abchasiska uppror. Moskoviterna har ju t ex stulit rospiggarnas namn för att skaffa sig legitimitet över alla gamla slaviska kungadömen såsom Jaroslav, Vladimir-Suzdal, Nizhny Novgorod, Kiev, Novgorod m fl. Orsaken till att moskoviterna lyckades ta övriga slaviska kungadömen var att de var mongolernas handräckare i att ta in tribut från övriga slaviska riken. Ett smutsigt arbete där man kan säga att grunden till den ryska maffian lades – tribut är ju detsamma som beskyddarpengar. Mongolerna hjälpte sedan moskoviterna att erövra övriga slaviska riken som tack för hjälpen. Nizhny Novgorod var t ex en gåva från den mongoliska khanen till moskoviterna… Så dessa blodsförrädare seglade upp till toppen och sedan för att skaffa sig legitimitet, något de inte hade och egentligen aldrig har haft, så bytte de namn från Hertigdömet Moskva till Tsardömet Rusland. Genom gifte med sondottern till den siste bysantiske kejsaren, Zoe Palaiologina, så anser Moskoviterna att de är arvtagare till Konstantinopel – det var nu de tog konstantinopels dubbelörn som symbol. Vill med detta bara beskriva hur ett lorthål i ingenstans, Moskva, kunde genom blodsförräderi och stöld av andra staters och folks attribut skapa en identitet som är genomfalsk. Denna falska nationella identitet är naturligtvis skör och om man krossar den så har Ryssland ingen identitet överhuvudtaget. Detta var också en ingediens när Ukraina bröt med Ryssland – Ukraina är ju de som egentligenm äger begreppet Rusland, det förutom Sverige förstås eftersomm vi fortfarande använder det för området Roslagen.

Tack så mycket! Kan du utveckla det med regeringen, jag är inte helt med?

Hank

Nu var inte ryssarna ensamma i sin dumhet att legitimera Ryssland som arvtagare till Byzantium. Den dåvarande kejsaren av det heliga romerska riket av tysk natur. Gav Ivan tillåtelse att använda dubbelörnen from 1487. Men jag tror inte att varken kejsaren eller katolska kyrkan hade den rätten. Titeln kejsare över Constantinopel eller Byzans förvärvades av Charles VIII of France som förvärvade rätten till titeln 1494. 1433 så införde kejsaren av det heliga romerska riket av tysk natur Sigismund  de Luxembourg dubbelörnen.

Jo man accepterade Kihls förslag och syn på försvaret och påbörjade avvecklingen av detsamma.

Först sålde Persson ut den tyngre mtrln och sedan avskaffade de nya moderaterna och deras medlöparpartier den allmänna värnplikten. Och försvarsledningen började fullt ut driva tesen om insatsförsvaret. Ett insatsförsvar som tydligen skall stationeras utomlands. Men alla med lite insikt i det militära vet ju att Sagréns tes är avgörande. Det gäller att kontrollera terrängen och eller luften.

Den tusenåriga fredens tidevarv hade tydligen börjat.

Jag läser också SvD dagligen och kan bara konstatera att DH’s kunskaper inom sitt ämnesområde vida överstiger exempelvis reportrarna inom ekonomi och näringsliv, men dessa sidor kanske du inte fäster någon större vikt vid. Att ha olika uppfattning är inte ”förorening” ej heller att ha fel i sak kan per definition betraktas om ”förorening”, men att kalla en meningsmotståndare vid öknamn, hans synpunkter för trams och hans person för oseriös – det passar bättre i medier som AB och Exp men skulle även där vara att anse som förorenande. 

Jag läser också SvD dagligen och kan bara konstatera att DH’s kunskaper inom sitt ämnesområde vida överstiger exempelvis reportrarna inom ekonomi och näringsliv, men dessa sidor kanske du inte fäster någon större vikt vid. Att ha olika uppfattning är inte ”förorening” ej heller att ha fel i sak kan per definition betraktas om ”förorening”, men att kalla en meningsmotståndare vid öknamn, hans synpunkter för trams och hans person för oseriös – det passar bättre i medier som AB och Exp men skulle även där vara att anse som förorenande.

Jag läser också SvD dagligen och kan bara konstatera att DH’s kunskaper inom sitt ämnesområde vida överstiger exempelvis reportrarna inom ekonomi och näringsliv, men dessa sidor kanske du inte fäster någon större vikt vid. Att ha olika uppfattning är inte ”förorening” ej heller att ha fel i sak kan per definition betraktas om ”förorening”, men att kalla en meningsmotståndare vid öknamn, hans synpunkter för trams och hans person för oseriös – det passar bättre i medier som AB och Exp men skulle även där vara att anse som förorenande.

Jag läser också SvD dagligen och kan bara konstatera att DH’s kunskaper inom sitt ämnesområde vida överstiger exempelvis reportrarna inom ekonomi och näringsliv, men dessa sidor kanske du inte fäster någon större vikt vid. Att ha olika uppfattning är inte ”förorening” ej heller att ha fel i sak kan per definition betraktas om ”förorening”, men att kalla en meningsmotståndare vid öknamn, hans synpunkter för trams och hans person för oseriös – det passar bättre i medier som AB och Exp men skulle även där vara att anse som förorenande.

Det du säger om SvD ekonomireportar låter ju inte bra och jag antar att du tar upp den saken med SvD? Dick gör ett antal kardinalsfel och ingen, utom en absolut lekman, kan förbise det. Vi har olika krav på kvalitet i historieämnet du och jag och Dicken, men din nivå ligger betydligt lägre än min.

Det du skriver stämmer delvis men inte helt. Styrkan som opererade i Polen uppgick till ca 30 000 man. Den kunde i sin tur, med en mindre del, ca 9000, utplåna en styrka  på ca 20 000 medan den reserterande höll en rysk ”styrka” på ca 40 000 i schack. Den ryska retirerade ideligen och vågade inte gå i strid. Vi har nog samma uppfattning i sak, man hade varit tvungen till en uppgörelse med Sachsen/Polen, men med tanke på den ryska arméns öde vid Narva så var nog förhandlingsläget gynnsamt. Danmark var ju t ex redan utslagna men utgjorde fortfarande ett latent hot. Det hotet var dock inte överhängande eftersom England och Nederländerna var på Sveriges sida, dvs Danmark kunde inte överskeppa några trupper till Sverige.

Det du säger om August är nog inte fel, men i så fall skulle Sverige ha koncentrerat sig på att hålla Baltikum och Ingermanland för att sedan systematiskt föröda allt ryskt närområde, djupare och djupare in i Ryssland. Pskov, Novgorod och så vidare.

Terrängen i all ära, jo jag håller med, men utan att det är rent i luften så är allt förlorat. Heder till de djärva grabbar som snodde en SU27 radar från ryssarna! Problemet är att verkligheten kommer att tvinga oss att tänka om och det jag är mest bekymrad för hur hård den verkligheten blir… Reinfeld har sålt ut Sverige på ett sätt som sossarna aldrig skulle ha gjort. Har faktiskt mer respekt för Göran Persson än Reinfeldt. Fast fick man välja nån annan än de två, så…

Boman, verkar som om du har mer sympati för ryssarna än för Sverige – du är väl inte kommunist/landsförrädare?
Du kanske kommer ihåg att det var Ryssland som anföll Sverige år 1700, inte tvärtom.

En buffertzon är en buffertzon om den fyller nån slags nytta. Om Finland föll, varför skulle då ryssen stanna upp? Moskoviterna/ryssarna, sovjetunionen har alltid varit ett hot av flera orsaker. Deras människosyn och bristande moral. Tack och lov har detsamma gjort dem till bland världens sämsta soldater.

Man ska aldrig lita på ryssar. Vi gör affärer i ryssland och det är ett genomruttet land.

Wow, du gillar verkligen inte Ryssland.

Det är bara att kontrollera hur stora svenska styrkor som deltog i inmarschen i Polen våren 1702 och/eller i slaget vid Kliszow på sommaren samma år. Att armén i Polen senare förstärktes är en helt annan sak – utgångspunkten var ju en offensiv 1700/01 och inte en 1705 eller 1706.

England och Nederländerna var förvisso i princip på svensk sida, men att därifrån gå till ett aktivt ingripande är något annat, i synnerhet som frågan om spanska tronföljden började bli ett allt allvarligare hot mot freden i Västeuropa.

Man ska komma ihåg att hela det svenska riket hade en befolkning på runt 3 miljoner. Mot det stod Ryssland med runt 10 miljoner och Sachsen (i viss mån hjälpt av grupper i Polen). Att Sverige med det utgångsläget skulle ha varit kapabelt att föra utnötningskrig är en feltänkning. För det fanns varken de ekonomiska eller de befolkningsmässiga resurserna och med de långa gränserna i Baltikum och Finland skulle gränshärjningar från svenskt håll bara ha mötts av motsvarande ryska härjningar. De beräkningar som gjordes sommaren 1701 av vad ett fälttåg i Rysslands gränstrakter skulle kosta visade att det skulle bli så dyrt och så resurskrävande att det näst intill var omöjligt. Man hade redan vintern 1700/01 svårt att försörja den lilla armé som låg i vinterkvarter, så hur skulle det inte ha varit om den hade gjorts 2 till 3 gånger så stor?

 Det var nog så hemskt för de som utsattes för det. Dåligt utvecklade skyddsnät och en total avsaknad av försäkringar betydde att gården, boskapen och de egna händerna var allt man hade. Efter en sådan härjning hade man bara den egna kroppskraften och de få ägodelar man hade lyckats gömma undan.
Men det var mindre hemskt än de vanliga härjningarna vid den här tiden (där standardmetoden inkluderade våldtäkt och mord ovanpå tidigare nämda stöld och brand).

Det finns ett antal mer eller mindre beläggda orsaker till att härjningarna var milda (i jämförelse). En väl belagd orsak var att härjningarna var ett medel för Tsaren att försöka tvinga Sverige till förhandlingsbordet, något som Sverige (något verklighetsfrånvarande) vägrade. Han hade redan tagit Estland (och annat område runt omkring hans nya huvudstad St.Petersburg), och nu ville Tsaren ha ett fredsavtal för att få det nerpräntat på papper.
Några mindre belagda anledningar är att Tsaren kanske var en beundrare av Sverige och Karl XII, och därför ville vara så mild som storpolitiken tillät (att Tsar Peter var en stor beundradre av västeuropa är väl belagt. Jag vet dock inte hur mycket av detta som utsträckte sig till Sverige). En annan är att han kanske försökte uppvigla befolkningen till uppror mot den svenska regeringen.

Dina kunskaper i historia är säkerligen större än mina men det betyder naturligtvis inte att din förmåga att bedöma skriftliga ”föroreningar” skulle vara bättre utvecklade, snarare verkar motsatsen vara tillfället.

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ehhh – det är ett ruttet land, men det är förståeligt varför det blev det. Livet i ”Ryssland” (det fanns i och för sig inte då…) ändrades i grunden i samband med mongolernas invasion och mentaliteten ändrades till det sämre. Majoriteten ryssar har i många århundraden varit trälar. 1861 när livegenskapen officiellt, inte reellt, avskaffades så var, av rysslands 61 miljoner invånare, 50 miljoner livegna trälar. Det skapar en ganska sunkig människosyn när ett liv inte är värt så mycket. Det är det inte idag heller, i ryssland dvs. Svenska soldater, fria män, kände ju till detta faktum och detta var en av flera faktorer som gör att svenska soldater kan besegra ryska med en faktor på upp till 4:1. Livegenskapen avskaffades reellt under 1990-talet, så varför förvänta sig att ryssarna ska bete sig som hederliga människor när de i alla tider har blivit präglade av terror och kampen om den dagliga överlevnaden, ofta på andras bekostnad.

Nu ska du ju komma ihåg att ryssarna hade stora problem med turkarna samt kosackuppror. Även fast jag inte har några direkta belägg för det misstänker jag att Sverige var mer produktivt än ryssland? Jag menar inte att England eller Nederländerna skulle ha gjort något mer aktivt än att hålla rent från danska örlogsfartyg. Det var ju trots allt Engelska fartyg som hjälpte Sverige att landstiga på Själland.

Det är svårt att komma med något rätt eller fel i det här ämnet, både du och jag har ju betydligt mindre information än Karl XII och hans närmaste män. Regementens och soldaters stridsvärde, information från spioner och andra informatörer samt desinformation.

Jag tror fortfarande att med, ett relativt nyligen, neutraliserat Danmark, ett chockat Ryssland och ett, antagligen, ganska nervöst Sachsen/Polen, så var den enda chansen till seger, en marsch mot Moskva. Sverige hade 1701:
22 Svenska och Finska infanteriregementen a 1200 man = 25 000 man
14 Värvade regementen a ca 1200 man – ”lantmilis” artillerregementen och garnissionstrupper oräknade = 15 000 man
17  Svenska och Finska kavallerienheter = 14 000 man
Värvat kavalleri = 10 000 man
Båtsmän (Marinsoldater) = 11 000

Summa: 66 000 man

Sverige kunde uppbåda ytterligare mellan 10 000 och 20 000 man med kort varsel, man uppsattte de facto armen 3 gånger under kriget…

Med detta vill jag bara visa att Sverige kunde ha satt allt på ett kort 1701 eller 1702, i ett läge då Ryssland var i en svår situation. trupperna fanns redan och större delen av kostnaden fanns där oavsett om man använde trupperna eller inte – soladter hade inte traktamente på den tiden.
Sett i backspeglen, vilket alltid är det enklaste, så hade Sverige de facto inget annat val. Men som jag sade tidigare, Sachen/Polen var tvungen att neutraliseras diplomatiskt på ett trovärdigt sett. Jag tror det sista var möjligt med tanke på att de var ensamma kvar.
Fågelvägen är det 63 mil från Nyen till Moskva och trupperna borde ha klarat den sträckan på ca 1 månad om man startade i slutet av maj. Rätt planerat så borde det ha gått, men det kommer vi aldrig att få veta.

1700/01 hade man inte problem med vare sig turkar eller kosacker. Sedan hjälps det fortfarande inte att att Sverige totalt sett hade x antal tiotusental man år 1701. Det intressanta är vad som blev över när de nödvändiga garnisonerna och fälttrupperna i de tyska provinserna, Baltikum, Sverige och Finland subtraheras ifrån totalsumman.

Sedan kan en armé inte marschera 63 mil på en månad. En mer rimlig takt är 6-7 mil i veckan eftersom man normalt rastade var tredje eller fjärde dag. Sedan får man räkna med strider, insamling av förråd mm. 3 månader skulle vara mer sannolikt – förstås under förutsättning att en armé på 20-25 000 man skulle klarat sig igenom tiomiljonerslandet Ryssland. De planer som gjordes upp 1701 var betydligt mindre våghalsiga, d.v.s. man skulle försöka inta ryska gränsfästningar som Pskov och Gdov.

De 700 000 dalerna byggde på kostnaden för att köpa upp förnödenheter inom landet. Förde man krig i ett rikt främmande land (t.ex. Polen) kunde arméns försörjning ordnas där, vilket var den stora fördelen med att inte slåss på hemmaplan.

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